On Nov. 8th, Stolvano Barbosa let us in a lively discussion of David Weinberger's, Everything Is Miscellaneous : The Power of the New Digital Disorder. Many thanks Stolvano! We are looking forward to doing more book discussions for librarians soon! Transcript copied below for those who could not attend. [18:04] Stolvano Barbosa: shall we get started? [18:04] Daisyblue Hefferman: thanks, MS Q for the urls for ths. very helpful [18:04] Stolvano Barbosa: WELCOME [18:04] Stolvano Barbosa: CAN I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION? [18:04] Stolvano Barbosa: This is the Library Buzz Book Discussion of Everything is Miscellaneous by David Weinberger [18:04] Ms Qunhua: YW, DB. [18:04] Stolvano Barbosa: I’m Stolvano Barbosa. I’m going to be moderating the discussion. [18:04] Stolvano Barbosa: I want to make a few introductory remarks and set the ground rules. [18:05] Stolvano Barbosa shouts: But it’s your discussion. You can take it anywhere you want. [18:05] Stolvano Barbosa: This book has a lot to interest librarians. [18:05] Stolvano Barbosa: Librarians are, in a manner of speaking, both the heroes and the villains of the book. [18:05] Stolvano Barbosa: I thought it would be a great topic of discussion here in second life. [18:05] Stolvano Barbosa: I have led many book discussions in RL, but never in SL. [18:05] Daisyblue Hefferman: good old misguided Melville. lol [18:05] Stolvano Barbosa: Some points of order: [18:06] Stolvano Barbosa: The Book cover here has a notecard stored in it with some additional information and links about the book. [18:06] Stolvano Barbosa: I am going to conduct the entire discussion in text chat--in the local chat window. [18:06] Stolvano Barbosa: I will try to log the chat, but others might want to do it as well. [18:06] Stolvano Barbosa: too much intro [18:06] Stolvano Barbosa: I am NOT going to employ any method of recognizing speakers. You can speak when you want. Try not to monopolize the conversation--let others speak. Let an idea develop fully before introducing another topic. Be patient. [18:06] Stolvano Barbosa: speed this up [18:06] Stolvano Barbosa: I have a few general questions that I will feed out during the discussion, but this can go any way you like. [18:07] Stolvano Barbosa: Are you ready??? [18:07] Stolvano Barbosa: :) [18:07] Stolvano Barbosa: *The main thesis of EIM seems to be that organizing digital objects and analog objects is inherently different. Does this seem true to you? Or is it a trivial point? [18:07] Stolvano Barbosa: ok go! [18:07] Stolvano Barbosa: trivial point? [18:07] Daisyblue Hefferman: major dif from what traditional librairanship has done. [18:08] Daisyblue Hefferman: but most needed now [18:08] Stolvano Barbosa: because we have delt with analog more than digital? [18:08] Ashbrook Llewellyn: I think he has a point - we tend to be somewhat more limited when organizing physical objects, but I wish he had more respect for the discipline that goes with it [18:08] Daisyblue Hefferman: for sure, but even our opacs fall up short now [18:08] Stolvano Barbosa: true [18:08] Stolvano Barbosa: how so? [18:09] Daisyblue Hefferman: according to Weinberger, that is [18:09] Ashbrook Llewellyn: Where we can use traditional techniques and "miscellaneous" ones, why not use both? [18:09] Stolvano Barbosa: good point [18:09] Daisyblue Hefferman: we need to digitize everything, according to him [18:09] Stolvano Barbosa: everything doesn't have to be digital [18:09] Stolvano Barbosa: or miscellaneous i meant to say [18:09] Daisyblue Hefferman: and I would hate to lose print altogether [18:09] Daisyblue Hefferman: but for finding info it's the way to go [18:10] Stolvano Barbosa: DW implies that we add a lot of possibilities with digital information [18:10] Ashbrook Llewellyn: On his Google talk, he seemed to fall victim to that "Well, it's all on the Internet now," perception [18:10] Daisyblue Hefferman: it's all there, but increasingly hard to find in the morass [18:10] bucky Barkley: analog -> find in one place .. digital -> find in any context someone has organized [18:10] Ashbrook Llewellyn: And Aristotle may not be Web 2.0, but he's still worth studying [18:10] Stolvano Barbosa: *Will we reach a point in time when ALL information will be available digitally? Is this a good thing? What can we accomplish in such a world? [18:10] Daisyblue Hefferman: most folks aren't expert searchers. [18:11] Stolvano Barbosa: right [18:11] Ashbrook Llewellyn: Good point, Daisy, and that's a criticism of Weinberger I see a lot [18:11] Haldin Koba: If there was a massive internet failure what would he do then? [18:11] Stolvano Barbosa: the digitization only makes the retrieval possible... [18:11] Daisyblue Hefferman: he says get it all out there, even the most trivial, as someone may want it some day [18:11] Ashbrook Llewellyn: Good point - and then there is the question of knowing how to interpret it [18:12] Haldin Koba: And just where is he going to store all this stuff? [18:12] Daisyblue Hefferman: but it is truly a mess if you don't know what you're doing [18:12] Stolvano Barbosa: that is a good question...storage [18:12] Daisyblue Hefferman: most people rarely go past the first page of results [18:12] Daisyblue Hefferman: a good search, and you shouldn't have to [18:12] Ashbrook Llewellyn: I find it interesting, because my job (records/archives) assumes that not everything is worth keeping forever - I will be interested to hear what the crowd I work with makes of this [18:12] Stolvano Barbosa: but DW implies that the links and tagging will help with the discovery [18:13] Ms Qunhua: Actually, I heard a lot of young ppl are going to the 3,000th result bc Google taught them. [18:13] Stolvano Barbosa: but IF you could keep everything...would you? [18:13] Daisyblue Hefferman: oh, Asbrook, to just touch one of those old bookcovers is a sensual ecperience we should not lose [18:13] Stolvano Barbosa: money storage time are no object [18:13] Stolvano Barbosa: would you digitize everything? [18:13] Ashbrook Llewellyn: I do think it's tempting [18:14] bucky Barkley: yes.. never know what context you might need things.. [18:14] Ashbrook Llewellyn: Because right now, much of what we have is based on luck or one person's opinion [18:14] Daisyblue Hefferman: but it wouls also be wonderful to access the info in them easily [18:14] Stolvano Barbosa: right [18:14] Stolvano Barbosa: maybe we could get more opinions in there] [18:14] Stolvano Barbosa: *If everything is metadata and all metadata are connected, does that really make finding what we need easier? Doesn't this greatly increase the number of "hits"? Isn't the ease based on how effective our filters are, how faceted our retrieval system? [18:14] Ashbrook Llewellyn: And different perspectives [18:15] Ashbrook Llewellyn: Does anyone else think he is overdefining "metadata?" [18:15] Ms Qunhua: We may have tag cloud overload too. [18:15] Stolvano Barbosa: he he [18:15] Ashbrook Llewellyn: I don't buy that "keyword" = "metadata" [18:15] Stolvano Barbosa: yes Q [18:15] Stolvano Barbosa: tag overload [18:16] Teofila Matova: define metadata == we all think of that differently, cognitively, IMHO [18:16] Stolvano Barbosa: what would you call metadata, ash? [18:16] Stolvano Barbosa: or Teo? [18:16] Ashbrook Llewellyn: Well, good point. And maybe metadata is what we make of it [18:16] Stolvano Barbosa: lets have a metadata define fest [18:16] Teofila Matova: ok, data about data...... but the user thinks of data in his/her own way [18:16] Stolvano Barbosa: yes [18:16] Teofila Matova: what i think of data is not going to be what may neighbor may think of data [18:16] Ashbrook Llewellyn: I see it as bringing some structure, though (and Weinberger clearly looks beyond that) [18:17] Teofila Matova: or how to find it or link it or relate to it , etc. [18:17] Ashbrook Llewellyn: But is a random keyword pulled out of a document "metadata?" [18:17] Stolvano Barbosa: if you objects are totally digital ... anything could be metadata... [18:17] Teofila Matova agrees [18:17] Stolvano Barbosa: random work... in the context of the user's interest [18:17] Stolvano Barbosa: word [18:17] Stolvano Barbosa: is metadata perhaps [18:17] Ashbrook Llewellyn: Well, true, it's not random if it has meaning to the user [18:17] Teofila Matova: word up? [18:18] Stolvano Barbosa: he he [18:18] Teofila Matova apologizes for interruped humour [18:18] Teofila Matova: *t [18:18] Stolvano Barbosa: no please [18:18] Stolvano Barbosa: we need it [18:18] Teofila Matova and misspelling [18:18] Stolvano Barbosa: The use of "miscellaneous" seems rather sloppy in the book? DW seems to apply it to anything that doesn't have a prior organizational scheme. Should the title have been "everything is metadata"? [18:18] Stolvano Barbosa: or anything outside the norm [18:18] Stolvano Barbosa: is miscellaneous [18:18] Stolvano Barbosa: to DW [18:19] Stolvano Barbosa: seems silly [18:19] Teofila Matova thinking of "information as thing" [18:19] Stolvano Barbosa: yes Teo [18:19] Stolvano Barbosa: *Is tagging an effective replacement for controlled vocabulary? [18:19] Teofila Matova sings "here we go round the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush... [18:20] bucky Barkley: yes... because users have different context in mind when they search.. my tags are not your tags [18:20] Daisyblue Hefferman: I think there is room for both methods [18:20] Teofila Matova: yes, me too [18:20] Teofila Matova: surrogate forms of identifying material is always good [18:20] Ashbrook Llewellyn: I like much of what DW says, but I sense an "instead of" attitude instead of an "in addition to" viewpoint. I'd love to see us use both [18:20] Ms Qunhua: Anyone see Peter Morville when he was in SL? [18:20] Stolvano Barbosa: agreed Ash [18:21] Stolvano Barbosa: no [18:21] Stolvano Barbosa: i missed morville [18:21] Teofila Matova: I live near Peter and had him as a guest speaker at the Michigan Chapter of ASIST [18:21] Ashbrook Llewellyn: I missed him, MsQ [18:21] Stolvano Barbosa: what did he have to say? [18:21] Ms Qunhua: His "ambient findability" seems to say that having both is best. [18:21] Stolvano Barbosa: in one line or less [18:21] Stolvano Barbosa: lol [18:21] Teofila Matova: it was a few years back, maybe 5.... so dated [18:21] Stolvano Barbosa: ambient findability [18:21] Stolvano Barbosa: good [18:21] Teofila Matova: and i'm having brain farts all day [18:21] Stolvano Barbosa: he he [18:22] Stolvano Barbosa: whew [18:22] Teofila Matova: (no smell in SL, good thing) [18:22] Marimar Berchot: oh [18:22] Teofila Matova: lol [18:22] Marimar Berchot: that's good [18:22] Teofila Matova: some book! [18:22] Teofila Matova: but Peter does hit the topic precisely, I think [18:22] Stolvano Barbosa: so we keep addressing my questions before my questions: [18:22] Stolvano Barbosa: *Social knowing would seem to take the task of organizing information out of the hands of experts. Does this seem rational to you? What would be the role of librarians in this kind of world? Can social knowing and expert organizing coexist? [18:22] Daisyblue Hefferman: it just like the web is always not the best palce to go for an answer. sometimes a boook is better [18:23] Daisyblue Hefferman: We need to use more than one method [18:23] Teofila Matova: ok, we are now moving into emergent behavior and agent based technologies [18:23] Teofila Matova: chaos leads to order [18:23] Stolvano Barbosa: yes [18:23] Teofila Matova: lets think of the librarian with all the books on the floor [18:23] Stolvano Barbosa: does the miscellaneous make us smarter? [18:23] Teofila Matova: and we do [18:23] bucky Barkley: gently nudged folksonomies ;) [18:23] Teofila Matova: it challenges us to make sense of "it" [18:24] Nuala Foxchase: It's not so much that we need more than one methid - it;'s that the steengths of the various methods need promoting honestly, rather than drawing the younger demographics in with the shiny technology and free turns on Facebook. :( [18:24] Stolvano Barbosa: how can we change standard library practice to bring in some of these ideas? [18:24] Teofila Matova: yep!!!!! so agrees! [18:24] Stolvano Barbosa: and not just have a blog? [18:24] Teofila Matova: instruction [18:24] Nuala Foxchase is on a very laggy laptop and may make many spelling mistakes. [18:25] Stolvano Barbosa: is ok [18:25] Stolvano Barbosa: spelling is no biggie [18:25] Teofila Matova: library instruction needs to include social networks.... pros and cons, usefulness and meaningfulness, purpose [18:25] You: I see it as... to pharaphrase Ranganathan.... all info has its user [18:25] Stolvano Barbosa: right [18:25] Teofila Matova: :-) [18:25] Teofila Matova: preference [18:25] Stolvano Barbosa: and users have their info too [18:25] Stolvano Barbosa: lol [18:26] Nuala Foxchase: Thee's so much of the 'net's grey information that's sitting on bookshelves gathering dust because people think that if they can't fond it on Brittanica or Google, they'll give up looking. The currency and quality values of sources need to be what's promoted, rather than methoods themselves. [18:26] Stolvano Barbosa: how can we keep that undigitized info relevant? [18:26] Teofila Matova: absolutely [18:26] Teofila Matova: library instruction [18:26] Teofila Matova: remember to talk in RL [18:26] Teofila Matova: interact [18:26] Stolvano Barbosa: relevant to people who never leave the computer? [18:26] Nuala Foxchase: Not everything needs a subscrtiption database, but students're losing the ability to be discerning about sources. [18:27] Teofila Matova: i go to my users, in RL [18:27] Teofila Matova: when they are finished, I ask them how things went [18:27] Stolvano Barbosa: good [18:27] Teofila Matova: I ask them if they know about "X" or "y" or z' [18:27] Stolvano Barbosa: is that a university setting, Teo? [18:27] Teofila Matova: WHY NOT? [18:27] Teofila Matova: sorry about the caps lock [18:27] Teofila Matova: I was "raised" professionally in an academic setting [18:28] Teofila Matova: i'm now an independent consultant and a technology librarian for a small public library (and quite conservative, which I am not) [18:28] Teofila Matova: I like asking them [18:28] Teofila Matova: and they love telling me what they know [18:28] Teofila Matova: and finding out what I know [18:28] Teofila Matova: we share [18:28] Teofila Matova: like here [18:28] Teofila Matova: randomly [18:28] Stolvano Barbosa: communication [18:28] Teofila Matova: ad hoc [18:28] Teofila Matova: social interaction/network [18:28] Stolvano Barbosa: that is partly what DW is getting at... [18:29] Stolvano Barbosa: that information is about conversation [18:29] Teofila Matova: so is project management [18:29] Stolvano Barbosa: networked information especially [18:29] Stolvano Barbosa: people can have conversations about things that matter to them and not be limited by space or location [18:30] Ms Qunhua: (Like here!" [18:30] Ms Qunhua: ) [18:30] Stolvano Barbosa: yes [18:30] Teofila Matova: right on! [18:30] Daisyblue Hefferman: I like to think of it as collective intelligence [18:30] Stolvano Barbosa: right [18:30] Teofila Matova: team building = knowledge management [18:30] Stolvano Barbosa: is that what the web is? [18:30] Daisyblue Hefferman: so many different experiences, but all add to the content [18:30] Teofila Matova: hmmmmmm [18:30] Teofila Matova: depends on the term "intelligence" [18:31] Daisyblue Hefferman: the web is a vehicle for it, yes, but not all of it is good [18:31] Ashbrook Llewellyn: It enables the connections. You always had the opportunity to find others with an interest in your topic, but the chances of connection become greater [18:31] Teofila Matova: and that is the same in all circumstances of any platform or life, right? [18:32] Ashbrook Llewellyn: I think it broadens that opportunity [18:32] Teofila Matova: I can drive my car -- anywhere -- to a drug dealers house or to the U of M's library [18:32] Teofila Matova: love highways! [18:32] Teofila Matova: (not going to drug dealers, just to clarify) [18:33] Stolvano Barbosa: but DW would say it's not the highway ... it's the linkages that are important [18:33] Ashbrook Llewellyn: And there are still road signs on that highway to help you [18:33] Stolvano Barbosa: and you can't make your own highway [18:33] Teofila Matova: i'm not hooked on phonics [18:33] Teofila Matova: and many people are not, literally [18:33] Teofila Matova: many people are illiterate [18:33] Teofila Matova: or blind [18:34] Stolvano Barbosa: right [18:34] Teofila Matova: what do we do [18:34] Daisyblue Hefferman: so sadly true, Teo [18:34] Teofila Matova: yes Section 508 [18:34] Daisyblue Hefferman: but that, I think is where libraries shine! [18:34] Teofila Matova: :-) / me shining! [18:34] Daisyblue Hefferman: they help the disaffected get what they need [18:34] Teofila Matova: :-) [18:34] Stolvano Barbosa: text reading devices? [18:34] Teofila Matova: yep [18:34] Stolvano Barbosa: voice recognition... [18:35] Teofila Matova: subscription to Braille resources [18:35] Ms Qunhua: Fact is, that all the info will NOT be FREE on the web. [18:35] Teofila Matova: so what? [18:35] Stolvano Barbosa: "computer...find me everything on..." [18:35] Teofila Matova: nothing's ALL free [18:35] Teofila Matova: wish it were [18:35] Daisyblue Hefferman: absolutely, MS. miscrosoft is in the midst of digitizing millions of books. for a fee. [18:35] Nuala Foxchase: My point precisely, Ms/ Q. [18:35] Ms Qunhua: So you will have access to ALL the information? [18:35] Stolvano Barbosa: no [18:35] Ms Qunhua: *who, not you. [18:36] Daisyblue Hefferman: again, libraries step in to help with that [18:36] Ashbrook Llewellyn: That's why I think the "it's all on the Internet" perception remains dangerous [18:36] Nuala Foxchase: A lot of the stuff that _is_ specialist and inaccessible to public users is still available in books, but people don't think to look. :( [18:36] Stolvano Barbosa: i don't think DW in necessarily say it is now all available [18:36] Stolvano Barbosa: but maybe that it would be a good thing if it were [18:37] Daisyblue Hefferman: but ultimately, someone must pay for its storage, even if only bits and bytes [18:37] Stolvano Barbosa: so I'm still interested in how this affects library collection development and cataloging ... does it change what we do... should it change what we do. [18:37] Stolvano Barbosa: ?? [18:38] Ms Qunhua: I think OPACs need to allow for user-generated tagging. [18:38] Daisyblue Hefferman: yes, MS [18:38] Stolvano Barbosa: that would be good [18:38] Daisyblue Hefferman: or at least more extensively than at the present [18:38] Stolvano Barbosa: how about comments and reviews? [18:38] Ashbrook Llewellyn: Are there lessons to be learned from Amazon.com for OPACs? See the best-checked-out titles, etc.? [18:38] Ashbrook Llewellyn: (I know some are starting to offer some capability) [18:39] Stolvano Barbosa: people who read this book also read... [18:39] Daisyblue Hefferman: some systems do that now [18:39] Stolvano Barbosa: but privacy... [18:39] Ms Qunhua: Comments & reviews too. [18:39] Ms Qunhua: But even on Amazon, I don't trust the reviews. [18:39] Ms Qunhua: Many books that are 5 starred are, well, not great. [18:40] Stolvano Barbosa: should these functions be open to anyone or just your users...comments etc? [18:40] Daisyblue Hefferman: no, you get the either I loved its or the I hated its, never the middle of the road [18:40] Daisyblue Hefferman: it's huma natur [18:40] Ms Qunhua: Just your users. [18:40] Daisyblue Hefferman: well, some of the bestsellers aren't that great, either [18:40] Nuala Foxchase: A couple of local authorities I've had interviews with're running online review and recommendation systems out of the library service's web site, but never integrated into the LMS or OPAC themselves. [18:40] Stolvano Barbosa: but if you find the people who have similar tastes...maybe you trust them [18:40] Daisyblue Hefferman: and a lot of that is subjective, but not all [18:40] bucky Barkley: ah.. but if you follow the other reviews one has written.. you get the sense for how well your likes mesh with theirs.. [18:41] Stolvano Barbosa: yes bucky [18:41] Stolvano Barbosa: find the person you share something with [18:41] Ashbrook Llewellyn: True, and that builds community, as well [18:41] Stolvano Barbosa: we could also try to build communities within our collections [18:41] Stolvano Barbosa: two minds Ash [18:41] bucky Barkley: reputation on the net is so important.. is a great filter... [18:42] Stolvano Barbosa: other than just comments...how do we build community? [18:42] Nuala Foxchase: I'veseen that done fairly successfully with housebound library servies group - a sort of combination book club and penpal scheme. [18:42] Stolvano Barbosa: cool [18:42] Ashbrook Llewellyn: What a great idea, Nuala [18:42] Munja Hapmouche: HI all [18:42] Stolvano Barbosa: hi munja [18:42] Nuala Foxchase: Lots of very isolated people suddenly made new friends, read new things and felt like they were actually in a unit. [18:42] Teofila Matova: community building! love that [18:43] Marimar Berchot: Hi Munja [18:43] Teofila Matova: that takes nurture [18:43] Nuala Foxchase: Hi Munja :) [18:43] Teofila Matova: humour [18:43] You: In SL it is fairly easy to build commuity around collections or in the reverse, could what we learn here be taken back into RL libraries? [18:43] Teofila Matova: love [18:43] Teofila Matova: passion [18:43] Teofila Matova: motivation [18:43] Teofila Matova: communication [18:43] Teofila Matova: follow-up [18:43] Teofila Matova: project management [18:43] Teofila Matova: networking skills [18:43] Ashbrook Llewellyn: I think that's a good point, Abbey [18:43] Stolvano Barbosa: how can we take SL to RL? [18:43] Teofila Matova: and remembering personal things about the person [18:44] Ashbrook Llewellyn: Is there a way to generate little nametags and profiles for RL? [18:44] Ashbrook Llewellyn: (Seriously, that seems to help in SL) [18:44] Stolvano Barbosa: how can we break down physical (and pyschological) barriers [18:44] Nuala Foxchase: Loss of assumptions - judgement on what we know about a person, rather than a set of data on acard. [18:44] Stolvano Barbosa: good one Ash [18:44] Teofila Matova: be open [18:44] Teofila Matova: openness [18:44] Teofila Matova: trust [18:44] Teofila Matova: accessibility [18:44] You: Seems it would be easier for public libraries... and perhaps something that group can study. [18:44] Teofila Matova: i could spearhead that [18:44] Teofila Matova: here, in SL [18:44] Stolvano Barbosa: but could also be communities with academic realms [18:44] Teofila Matova: would be interesting [18:45] Teofila Matova: yes [18:45] Stolvano Barbosa: not just departments [18:45] Teofila Matova: like Dexter..... close to Ann Arbor [18:45] Teofila Matova: (in Michigan, USA, for those out of the States) [18:45] Stolvano Barbosa: so... should the user feedback be driving what we collect? [18:45] Daisyblue Hefferman: to a degree. [18:45] Teofila Matova: is any project driven by what we have? [18:45] Daisyblue Hefferman: but the users's need change [18:46] Daisyblue Hefferman: and we need to go some broader, too [18:46] Ms Qunhua: Some are more vocal than others. [18:46] Stolvano Barbosa: so ... collect on demand?... does that work? [18:46] Munja Hapmouche: The vocal people are usually the crazy ones [18:46] Teofila Matova: that's why we have collection development policies [18:46] Ms Qunhua: We need to do more of that. [18:46] Ashbrook Llewellyn: And you want to be able to anticipate needs sometimes, too, not just react to them [18:46] Teofila Matova: remain fluid [18:46] Daisyblue Hefferman: not for a well-balanced collection, but surely heavily on users interests [18:46] Nuala Foxchase: The vocal people're the extremes of either end. [18:46] Ashbrook Llewellyn: Well, if more users had easier ways to provide input, would we get a more balanced view? [18:46] Stolvano Barbosa: we need the silent majority [18:47] Teofila Matova: right on [18:47] Teofila Matova: that's why I approach my clients [18:47] Stolvano Barbosa: yes... the input should be easy [18:47] Stolvano Barbosa: multiple points of input [18:47] Teofila Matova: patrons [18:47] Daisyblue Hefferman: I shuddered at buying the politically conservative tuff, but had users who wanted it. [18:48] Daisyblue Hefferman: so would balance with moer libearal things [18:48] Ashbrook Llewellyn: I do think new technology (SL, Facebook, whatever) can give us additional ways to connect - not get rid of the desk, but allow us to move from out behind it as well [18:48] Daisyblue Hefferman: libersal [18:48] Nuala Foxchase: There's a big trend in public libraries in my country for creating an accessible environment - welcoming desk, trainiung floor walkers and whatnot. The users're being encouraged to come forward and not see the desk as a barrier or the librarians as "too busy with their jobs" to be bothered by them. [18:48] Daisyblue Hefferman: liberal [18:48] Stolvano Barbosa: so back to cataloging for a moment: [18:48] Stolvano Barbosa: so... should the user feedback be driving what we collect? [18:48] Stolvano Barbosa: oops [18:48] Stolvano Barbosa: wrong paste [18:48] Stolvano Barbosa: *Some objects inherently have lots of metadata, but some need to have metadata added. Does DW fully appreciate the tremendous labor involved in identifying and applying metadata? [18:49] Daisyblue Hefferman: no, he does not. [18:49] Ashbrook Llewellyn: This is where I think he overapplies "metadata = keyword" [18:49] Daisyblue Hefferman: whocan possibly read every new book added? [18:49] Ashbrook Llewellyn: I love keywords, mind you. [18:49] Daisyblue Hefferman: unless it's shipped with the book! now there's an idea [18:49] Ashbrook Llewellyn: But they are not always going to equal structure [18:49] Stolvano Barbosa: but maybe the metadata is just the text itself [18:49] Stolvano Barbosa: for a digital book [18:50] Nuala Foxchase: I used to work at a uni library with an educational resource collection - you haven't lived until you've seen a whole room of cataloguers quibbling over a box of unmarked Sikh religious regalia and a teddy bear... [18:50] Ashbrook Llewellyn: lol [18:50] Daisyblue Hefferman: we buy a hard copy, and the digital comes with it! [18:50] Stolvano Barbosa: then the metadata is shipped with the book [18:50] Stolvano Barbosa: but maybe the librarians continue to do the LCSH [18:50] Stolvano Barbosa: and users do everything else [18:50] Ashbrook Llewellyn: So it's an enhancement, not a replacement [18:51] Daisyblue Hefferman: what about the books that are important to a collelction, but rarely read in entrety? [18:51] Ms Qunhua nods her head. [18:51] Daisyblue Hefferman: entirety [18:51] Munja Hapmouche: What exactly are you guys debating? [18:51] Stolvano Barbosa: metadata...digital information...expert knowledge [18:52] Stolvano Barbosa: i think digital will become the norm one day [18:52] Teofila Matova: What is expert knowledge? or did we discuss that already? [18:52] Teofila Matova: Who is the expert? [18:52] Stolvano Barbosa: right [18:52] Stolvano Barbosa: librarians? [18:52] Stolvano Barbosa: writers? [18:52] Stolvano Barbosa: publishers? [18:52] Munja Hapmouche: See that's an attitude that puts people off [18:52] Daisyblue Hefferman: expert at what?, too. [18:52] Stolvano Barbosa: editors? [18:52] Teofila Matova: I may know how to get information..... but an "expert" [18:52] Nuala Foxchase: With so much determined by end-user feedback, I'm rather concerned about prescriptive versus descriptive collection development. A collection formed by readers of the existing collection largely feels like a snake that'll eventually eat its own tail - there needds to be some proportion of new blood... ummmm... ink occasionally, just to keep it refreshed and a mix of genres. Otherwise, you'd have whole libraries of Harry Potter and Mills & Boom... Or it feels that way to me. [18:52] Stolvano Barbosa: bloggers? [18:53] Stolvano Barbosa: good point Nuala [18:53] Stolvano Barbosa: a mix of user and librarian driven collections [18:53] Ashbrook Llewellyn: One of the opportunities I see in all this is that we can make better use of the specialized knowledge in our communities - we can't know everything about all topics. But if you have someone in your client base who is passionate about 17th century thimbles (or whatever), and that's the new Harry Potter, you could connect w/that person's expertise for the benefit of all. [18:53] Stolvano Barbosa: and let them catalog books [18:54] Ashbrook Llewellyn: And let them enhance your metadata on those books [18:54] Daisyblue Hefferman: well I think what we do now is a mix of user and librarian driven [18:54] Stolvano Barbosa: true [18:54] Stolvano Barbosa: i see typing... [18:54] Daisyblue Hefferman: certainly I buy what my users want, but I also think I know what they need [18:54] Ms Qunhua: How do they prevent, say, the webpages including a lot of random words just to get ppl to look @ the page? [18:55] Munja Hapmouche: I think the biggest problem is that most library catalogs suck. People wnat Google. [18:55] Stolvano Barbosa: library catalogs do suck [18:55] Daisyblue Hefferman: good point, MS, been a problem since the inception of the web [18:55] Daisyblue Hefferman: a problem in sl too [18:55] Stolvano Barbosa: i think DW says...with enough eyes looking... the creme rises... [18:55] Munja Hapmouche: Why can't the big players just license Google technology/ [18:56] Stolvano Barbosa: i think google search doesnt have the other things a library needs [18:56] Daisyblue Hefferman: there is a growing number of people who mistrust google. [18:56] Stolvano Barbosa: circulation [18:56] Ashbrook Llewellyn: So a sort of Google-Slashdot mix, with users ranking the pages? [18:56] Stolvano Barbosa: acquisitions [18:56] Nuala Foxchase: There's been a lot of redesigning of the GUI, but libraries aren't the most likely place for people to find a search engine any more. Useers're used to Google's functionality. :( [18:56] Stolvano Barbosa: patron records [18:56] Marimar Berchot: We have Softlink and it's very weblike [18:56] bucky Barkley: even though google gets it right, doesn't mean orhers should stop trying.. [18:56] Daisyblue Hefferman: so, they do what they do very well. but some think they're on to owning the web [18:57] Teofila Matova: that's what people think about MS [18:57] Daisyblue Hefferman: yes, well between the 2, content can be controlled [18:57] Stolvano Barbosa: we could use metadata from google...with our own patron records [18:57] Marimar Berchot: yes [18:57] Stolvano Barbosa: make a mashup catalog [18:57] Munja Hapmouche: Right Google doesn;t have everything a lobrary catalog should, but htey know how people wnat to search...we don;t [18:57] Nuala Foxchase: Cosmetic resemblance to Google was a big thing that the uni I was working at betaed TalisPrism on, but it's not the aesthetics that feel like the issue. [18:58] Stolvano Barbosa: i think even google lacks the faceted searching i would like to have [18:58] Stolvano Barbosa: open worldcat [18:58] Stolvano Barbosa: plus google [18:58] Daisyblue Hefferman: oh, yes [18:58] Ashbrook Llewellyn: I do think there is a "feel" aspect to all this - Google feels easy to use, even though you may get 40,000 hits and not necessarily get the best stuff up front [18:59] Munja Hapmouche: Question...does the average user have any idea how many databases are out htere or how to use them? [18:59] Stolvano Barbosa: no [18:59] Stolvano Barbosa: rarely [18:59] Daisyblue Hefferman: not a clue [18:59] Stolvano Barbosa: more user education [18:59] Nuala Foxchase: If they did, many of us might be out of a job. :( [18:59] Ashbrook Llewellyn: I see that with documents - everyone wants to be able to find information quickly, but individual users hate the thought of applying metadata to their documents to make them easier to find [18:59] Munja Hapmouche: we have tons of info that is not marketd correctly. [18:59] Stolvano Barbosa: right [19:00] Munja Hapmouche: The companies design stuff for librarians...not average people. [19:00] Stolvano Barbosa: yes [19:00] Stolvano Barbosa: should be easier to use [19:00] Munja Hapmouche: There;s the rub. [19:00] Stolvano Barbosa: most databases are a disaster [19:00] Stolvano Barbosa: so... [19:00] Stolvano Barbosa: has this book changed your thinking about anything? [19:01] Ashbrook Llewellyn: Is there a way to let the "keyword" stuff serve as the baseline (instead of traditional cataloging), but have the librarians add the specialized value (tags, controlled vocab, etc.)? [19:01] Daisyblue Hefferman: not sure a change, but sure made me think [19:01] Stolvano Barbosa: yes [19:01] Daisyblue Hefferman: I catalog in a local history museum. [19:01] Ms Qunhua: The limits of physical space. [19:02] Daisyblue Hefferman: We use traditional subject headings, but add other finding aids too [19:02] Stolvano Barbosa: yes [19:02] Stolvano Barbosa: a big point Q [19:02] Stolvano Barbosa: digital doesn't use space the same way [19:02] Stolvano Barbosa: do you look forward to a digital world or does it make your skin crawl? [19:02] Munja Hapmouche: WHo decides what thigns should be cataloged under? [19:02] Stolvano Barbosa: right [19:02] Ashbrook Llewellyn: I love the idea of additional connections and points of access. [19:02] Daisyblue Hefferman: I love it, but will never surrender my book to crawl into bed iwht. [19:03] Munja Hapmouche: Do we ever survey what people look for? [19:03] Daisyblue Hefferman: google does, Munja [19:03] Stolvano Barbosa: what if there was a really good ebook reader? [19:03] Munja Hapmouche: right [19:03] Ms Qunhua: I used to read my PDA in bed. [19:03] bucky Barkley: that's just it... why do things have to be catalogued in one place anymore? :-) [19:03] Stolvano Barbosa: me too [19:03] Daisyblue Hefferman: no, a machine in my bed? never! [19:03] Stolvano Barbosa: PDA ... hated it [19:03] Munja Hapmouche: true bucky [19:04] Stolvano Barbosa: but what if it looked just like a book? [19:04] Stolvano Barbosa: pages and everything? [19:04] Daisyblue Hefferman: and felt like one, and smelt like one? [19:04] Stolvano Barbosa: yeah [19:04] Stolvano Barbosa: lol [19:04] Stolvano Barbosa: just had a different book in it every night [19:04] Daisyblue Hefferman: well, if I didn't need my glasses to see it, perhaps lol [19:04] Munja Hapmouche: Better quesion about ebooks. why don;t they adapt them specifically for text books? [19:04] Nuala Foxchase: I still wouldn't surrender my 1914 vintage first aid manuals. The content isn't the only piece of historical data when it comes to a book - binding, size, materials et al're all part of the experience and the time. [19:05] Daisyblue Hefferman: but even now, I prefer paper to reading from a screen [19:05] Ashbrook Llewellyn: Oh, maybe an SL-style book, where you could touch it and change the cover color, change the pages inside. :-) [19:05] Daisyblue Hefferman: the glare, perhaps [19:05] Stolvano Barbosa: but there will be screens without glare [19:05] Stolvano Barbosa: soon [19:05] Stolvano Barbosa: very soon [19:05] Stolvano Barbosa: now [19:05] Munja Hapmouche: text books are where ebooks could shine, but they don;t offer them do they? [19:05] Daisyblue Hefferman: Have you ever fondled an aged children's book? oh my, the artistry in them! [19:05] Daisyblue Hefferman: We [19:05] Daisyblue Hefferman: 'd lose that [19:05] Nuala Foxchase: Amen, Daisy. :) [19:05] Peaches Pessoa would like to be able to adjust font size, now that her eyesight is failing. [19:05] Stolvano Barbosa: true [19:06] Stolvano Barbosa: yes [19:06] Stolvano Barbosa: peaches [19:06] Stolvano Barbosa: user adjustable books [19:06] Ashbrook Llewellyn: How about a book that could connect you to all the other people who liked the same book? [19:06] bucky Barkley: "The Diamond Age" by Neal Stephenson is an excellent riff on that topic.. [19:06] Stolvano Barbosa: yes [19:06] Stolvano Barbosa: book you can annotate [19:06] Peaches Pessoa: yes. A PDA that I can use to make calls, read e-mail and read books, and cruise the web [19:07] Stolvano Barbosa: bigger than a pda [19:07] Ashbrook Llewellyn: I think we're onto something - make a PDA that looks like a comfortable-sized book :-) [19:07] Stolvano Barbosa: sony ebook reader? [19:07] Daisyblue Hefferman: too mush like dragging an oxygen tank around! [19:07] waseem Waco: u wanna take a seat [19:07] Barn Owl: Thank you for petting me Alaska Takacs [19:08] bucky Barkley: the one book you better not lose ...or.. just the object for tapping into what u have elsewhere. [19:08] Stolvano Barbosa: it's small [19:08] Daisyblue Hefferman: ebooks have not done that well, now have they? [19:08] Ashbrook Llewellyn: good point, bucky [19:08] Barn Owl: Wo Wo Wooo Wo Wo! [19:08] Munja Hapmouche: wrong mraket [19:08] Daisyblue Hefferman: no elctricity, or batteries run out, no book [19:08] Stolvano Barbosa: true [19:08] Stolvano Barbosa: too energy dependent [19:08] Daisyblue Hefferman: my only solace durig outages are my books [19:08] Percival's Short Bench: Right click me and choose 'Sit Here' to sit down [19:08] deadangel Lagerlof: YA I DONT LIKE THAT EITHER [19:08] deadangel Lagerlof: oops [19:08] deadangel Lagerlof: sorry caps [19:09] Munja Hapmouche: Why doi we keep trying to shove ebooks down peopl's throats? [19:09] Nuala Foxchase: Plus, there's always resistance from the information have-nots who can't afford it, or the non tech-savvy. Those gulfs're wide enough already. :( [19:09] Ashbrook Llewellyn: Thanks, everyone - must go. I am going to try filing all my SL inventory under "miscellaneous" :-) [19:09] deadangel Lagerlof: seemy wher er u [19:09] Barn Owl: Wo Wo Wooo Wo Wo! [19:09] Ms Qunhua: I wonder how many of those same ppl own ipods. [19:09] Stolvano Barbosa: was trying to find a link on the web [19:09] Daisyblue Hefferman: At a harvard class we heard from the guy pressing 1 computer for 1 child [19:10] Daisyblue Hefferman: we made mincemeat of him [19:10] Stolvano Barbosa: http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/10/sonys-prs-505-ebook-reader-leaks-out/ [19:10] Stolvano Barbosa: well [19:10] Daisyblue Hefferman: the whole world is simply not all on the same page technologically [19:10] deadangel Lagerlof: we think alike [19:10] waseem Waco: what u guys talking about [19:10] Stolvano Barbosa: true [19:11] deadangel Lagerlof: i think ebooks? [19:11] waseem Waco: boring [19:11] Stolvano Barbosa: but that is true with all technologies... not just information [19:11] waseem Waco: what r ebooks [19:11] Daisyblue Hefferman: we asked if the basic nutritional and medical needs be met first [19:11] deadangel Lagerlof: ive sent u some [19:11] Munja Hapmouche: Aren't libraries supposed to function as an equalizer of sorts? [19:11] deadangel Lagerlof: those wahhabi books [19:11] waseem Waco: ok gthat book was cool [19:11] Stolvano Barbosa: but some have criticized SL itself as an energy waste... [19:11] waseem Waco: yeah out there [19:12] Stolvano Barbosa: the average avie uses X amount of energy in a year... [19:12] Daisyblue Hefferman: again, sl is personal choice. [19:12] Daisyblue Hefferman: no one is forced to be here [19:12] waseem Waco: stolvano whatcha doing [19:12] Munja Hapmouche: I think we loose that when we press people into things like ebooks. [19:12] Barn Owl: Wooo! [19:12] Stolvano Barbosa: we're discussing the book everything is miscellaneous [19:12] Ms Qunhua: Some classes are required to be here. [19:13] Daisyblue Hefferman: and personal choice is hwat we need to bring to our patrons [19:13] deadangel Lagerlof: weve taken them [19:13] deadangel Lagerlof: at harv [19:13] Stolvano Barbosa: well... [19:13] Stolvano Barbosa: we're about to wrap up I think [19:13] waseem Waco: do u wanna go [19:13] Daisyblue Hefferman: good job, Stoli [19:13] waseem Waco: nessie pie [19:13] Stolvano Barbosa: any final comments? [19:13] bucky Barkley: I like the idea of combining ereaders with subscriptions.. a la http://safari.oreilly.com/ [19:14] Barn Owl: Wo Wo Wooo! [19:14] Stolvano Barbosa: you are welcome to continue the conversation on my blog [19:14] waseem Waco: u choice a place [19:14] Stolvano Barbosa: listed in the notecard [19:14] waseem Waco: i messed up [19:14] Stolvano Barbosa: happy reading everybody [19:14] You: Excellent Stolvano! We will post the transcript on infoisland.org also. [19:14] Marimar Berchot: Thanks Stolvano! [19:14] bucky Barkley: thanks Stoli! [19:14] Stolvano Barbosa: thanks abbey [19:14] Teofila Matova: Thanks, Stolvano! [19:14] Stolvano Barbosa: transcript would be good [19:14] waseem Waco: u there sweetie pie [19:14] Ms Qunhua applauds. [19:15] Barn Owl: Woooooo! [19:15] Stolvano Barbosa: we covered a lot of ground [19:15] Stolvano Barbosa: good work everybody